“This is a social movement that is moving forward faster than any other social movement in the world and probably in history.“
— Javier Hasse
History is being made, day by day, as we move closer to the post-prohibition era for cannabis.
Most of us are on the sidelines, reading the headlines and trying to figure out what's happening in cannabis businesses, in our legal and law-making systems, in science and in the culture as a whole. Our guest for this episode is writing those headlines: Javier Hasse runs the cannabis desk for online publisher Benzinga, and is a contributing writer for many other publications, including Forbes, Entrepreneur, High Times and many other news organizations.
LINKS TO TOPICS REFERRED TO IN THIS PODCAST
“Start Your Own Cannabis Business” by Javier Hasse
Debra Borchardt, Editor in Chief of Green Market Report
Kannaboomers (00:00): You know, there's so much happening in cannabis, in the culture, in the politics, in the business end of it, so who has all the answers? Nobody has all the answers, but we went to a guy who has a front row seat to all the action. His name is Javier Hasse. He's a writer for Forbes and runs the cannabis desk at Benzinga. We're really honored to have him on the show this week to talk about what's happening in cannabis. It's a great conversation. I think you'll enjoy it and if you are a first time listener, please look us up on Apple podcasts or Castbox or Overcast or wherever you listen and leave a review because we're trying to extend our reach and just get the news out about all these various aspects of cannabis that we discuss. You're out on the Kannaboomers podcast. Enjoy the show.
Kannaboomers (00:42): This is, Let's Talk About Weed, the Kannaboomers Podcast: CBD,microdosing and all things related to medical cannabis for baby boomers from San Diego. Here's your host, Thomas J.
Kannaboomers (00:55): Welcome to the show. We have Javier Hasse with us today.
Javier Hasse (00:58): Honored to be on one of my favorite cannabis podcasts.
Kannaboomers (01:02): Javier is the author of "Start Your Own Cannabis Business." He's a native of Argentina. He is also director of the cannabis desk at Benzinga and a contributor at Forbes. So he really knows his territory. We're honored to have him on the show and eager to roll into this and start talking all things cannabis. You're back home right now.
Javier Hasse (01:21): I am, got back from a three-week trip around the U.S. Actually just New York and Detroit, and then back home in Argentina for one or two weeks depending on the next trip, which is out to Columbia where as you might be aware, there's a lot of interesting stuff happening around cannabis, legal, cannabis, medical exports. So, you know, exciting always and very happy to be home.
Kannaboomers (01:50): Cannabis is not legal in Argentina.
Javier Hasse (01:52): Yes, that is correct. We have a medical program. It's very limited, mostly CBD. I think right now we only have a Charlotte's Web and maybe some of Telray's products through compassionate use. To a certain extent. In certain jurisdictions, cannabis is decriminalized and you won't get in terrible trouble for having a couple of plants or some weed on you. But it's certainly not an ideal scenario as I'm sure anyone around the world feels about their own country. Even if you're in Canada where you have fully legal cannabis, people are still not fully pleased, right?
Kannaboomers (02:33): Things are happening very quickly and in the United States, 10 years ago we wouldn't be having this conversation, but you're right there at the intersection of culture and policy and law and finance and it's your job to cover this every day. That's amazing to me. And do you ever pinch yourself and go, wow, this is unreal?
Javier Hasse (02:49): Are you kidding me? Every day, like I wake up every day and I'm like, what is in, you know, in my schedule for today? And I go like, oh, so this rapper, then this politician, then you know, reading some cannabis stuff and writing about cannabis and then going on Kannaboomers Podcast, it's like, what the hell is this day about? Or you imagine when I wake up and I'm doing facility tours, I wake up in the Colombian Caribbean and I know that I'm, you know, I wake up by the Caribbean Sea and, and within 20, I know, I, it'll take a 20-minute drive up the mountain to end up in a 12,000 plants outdoor cannabis grow with, you know, canopy is far as your eyesight can go. Like, it's surreal. Last week I was in Detroit for the Cannabis Cup. Suddenly someone at High Times who knows me very well, comes along and he goes like, hey, come, come with me. And they take me on stage. So I'm watching Wu Tang Clan, these guys I love from on the stage. That is so cool.
Kannaboomers (03:56): Major perks to this job.
Javier Hasse (03:58): Yeah.
Kannaboomers (03:59): What's your favorite part of this and do you, do you cover like finance? I mean, Benzinga, I was unfamiliar with them frankly, but I was impressed when I looked at your site. It's almost kinda like Bloomberg, right? It's very finance-oriented.
Javier Hasse (04:12): Definitely. Yeah. We actually have a very similar platform called BenzaPro. It's comparable to the terminal. Benzinga has been around for several years and we started, I started writing about cannabis for them also several years ago. And, and you know, they noticed the practice was growing. We now have a team of over 30 people working on cannabis initiatives every day and you know, put out some, somewhere between 20 to 30 articles a day, mostly about finance and business, but other stuff as well. I mean, I got into cannabis from the finance angle, but you know, my, my true passion is as cannabis as a whole, right? As a plant, as a movement, as medicine, as an instrument for social justice, for gender equality you know, for, for tax revenue, for the development of education, for general wellness and well-being. Just, you know, there's so many facets. It touches on so many things. It's just like, you know, there's so much you can say about cannabis.
Kannaboomers (05:14): Yeah. It really is the social movement of our time and what a front-row seat. You have to be able to let your curiosity just drive you and find the things that you know your readers want to know about.
Javier Hasse (05:25): Yeah, definitely. Funny enough, a lot of what we cover is definitely determined by our readership. And then a lot is just determined by why I, what I think or what our editors think is, is important, right? We don't just cater to clicks. We really want to share whatever we think is important for people to know. And sometimes we get, we get crap over it sometimes because it's not finance-related sometimes because it is and people go like, oh, this is not relevant to me. And it's like, yeah, well, but it's relevant to the investors of this company. And, and vice versa. Sometimes investors go like, well, why do I care about social equity? And it's like, well, if you're invested in this space, you should care. If you don't, it's your problem. But I do. So here's our cons and read it, not read it. Right. Tried to deliver this service to the community as a whole and to knowledge and not just, you know, not just clicks,
Kannaboomers (06:18): It's more than just a finance story. This affects people at a very intimate level when they're taking it as a medicine or, or using it in different ways.
Javier Hasse (06:27): Definitely. Yeah, as I mentioned, like just the reach of this plant to the movement and everything around it is just dazzling events. I don't know. I really don't know how to describe it other than, you know, awe-inspiring. It blows my mind every day.
Kannaboomers (06:46): The comparison that a lot of people want to make because it's handy is how does this compare to alcohol? And you know, there's different ways you could look at that in terms of health or finance. But as a market, you know, there's a lot of people around the world drinking a lot of alcohol. Does cannabis eventually become the new alcohol?
Javier Hasse (07:04): Oh, I mean, it's definitely different. I do consume alcohol, but to be totally candid, it kinda sucks. You know, it makes you feel great and then it doesn't. And it really provides nothing but a good time. I mean, everything in its right measure is, is good. And, and you know, there's certainly certain alcoholic beverages like wine that are believed are set to have you know, some positive properties for the body, but yet cannabis does not compare in the sense that it's, it's really good for you, period. I mean, it's we, we kind of discuss it. Smoking is the best way to consume it or not. Definitely smoke is never good for you, but it is becoming alternative. We can see that in the numbers. You know alcohol companies where recreational cannabis is legalized are feeling the impact.
Javier Hasse (07:58): They are definitely preparing for this situation by making massive investments in the industry that as we've seen for instance, by Constellation Brands meet this $4 billion to $5 billion investment into Canopy Growth. Constellation makes Corona beers among other stuff. And several others are getting into this space from, you know, Molson. Is it all on course? I'm not sure. Last week we learned this Michigan craft brewery, one of my favorites in America called Short's Brewing also signed a deal to, to, to get into cannabis by, you know, doing edibles and, and licensing some of its flavor is, it's, it's, you know, it's never-ending and you see that beer. It has, it's, it's high if I hopped product. And so, I mean definitely there's an impact. We can definitely see also in the statistics that younger generations prefer cannabis over alcohol. You know, it's, it's in the decline. It's like smoking. It's one of these things that might feel great in the short term, but then in the medium and long term, they tend to suck and may tend to have very negative effects. So it is that I don't see alcohol disappearing from the world. A lot of people don't like cannabis. People don't feel comfortable with cannabis. Just don't like the fact. And, and of course, alcohol does get you in a different mood, right? It's not like cannabis is appropriate for every situation where you believe alcohol can work as a social lubricant or general relaxation tool.
Kannaboomers (09:40): Right. The more we learn about, as the science comes online and we learn about our endocannabinoid system and all the cannabinoids in this plant and the terpenes and how they interact with our whole system, we know for sure it's not a poison the way alcohol is. It has medicinal properties. And while it may have an intoxicating effect, yeah, you don't get that hangover, it's never killed anyone. And alcohol has killed plenty of people,
Javier Hasse (10:05): Massive amount of people. And that is not even counting impaired driving. Right? So just like from liver disease and stuff like that, people die a lot. And then, you know, drunk drivers it's another big issue. And, and I mean it's even if anecdotal, there's, there's actual scientific evidence to back all these claims. But even anecdotally, any person, sometimes state is not enough to convince someone of anything. It's like when I tried to explain to all the generations about the benefits of cannabis, they don't really believe me. They still think it's this thing where you see pink elephants until and until they experience it themselves. They are, they are skeptical. Same goes for this situation with alcohol. How many times have you woke up where the hangover because you drank more than you should've? Probably many. I mean, I'm not saying you did, but like most people at a certain point in their lives have, and you know, the worst thing that you can feel from smoking too much cannabis is, you know, waking up the next day and feeling like, ugh, I'm lazy, you know, are a little bit foggy, but it's not like you, she cannot get out of bed because you're throwing up or whatever.
Kannaboomers (11:17): Right. So you guys cover it from sort of a business angle. What do you see as the big story there? They call it the green rush instead of the gold rush. And there's growers, there's distributors, there's extractors. I mean, there's marketers, there's all kinds of people rushing into this market. What do you see from your level?
Javier Hasse (11:36): I mean, as you say, it's a green rush. I do not dislike that definition. Many states over men and say it's not what I see as a business. Like suddenly being born and developed all over the world. Right? It's something that, yeah, we, we used to have a lot of illicit cannabis sales in the past. Now suddenly it's becoming a real business everywhere. It's a new business with built in demand. So it's massive on every level. Any country that legalizes sees an instant or any jurisdiction for, you know, for what it's worth sees it in massive uptick and you know, tax revenue and jobs and, and, and, and, and you know, and the spillover effect within the economy, just not, not the actual safe spot sales, but the economic impact. All these industries are sub sectors of the industry that developed around cultivation, retail and transportation.
Javier Hasse (12:33): Right. As you mentioned, there's a lot more to cannabis legalization and the market and the industry than just growing, selling or moving. We had around, right? There is, there is everything for every from software services geared toward tracking cannabis to physical security services that are a, you know, specialized in serving dispensaries because of course you don't want this kind of bad-ass looking a security guard when you go get your cannabis to agriculture and technology companies, you know, creating a new systems to automate cannabis cultivation to a certain extent, right? Because the cams find is very unique so it's not like you can use many of the preexisting technologies, right? It takes a lot of human care. It takes a lot of attention, very specific. It has very specific strict traits and every strain has its own very specific traits and the conditions it needs to grow and thrive and develop the most amount of cannabinoids then and and you know, full profile that it can offer.
Kannaboomers (13:41): It is a big sprawling story with many aspects in California. We're coming up on two years of legalization and I spoke last week with someone from the Bureau of Cannabis Control, and legalization is not a binary switch where it's done. It's like everything you just talked about. There's an evolving set of circumstances where sometimes legislators and agencies have to come back around and address this again. That's probably going to continue on the legal level and enforcement level and you know, as we learn more and more about the plant itself.
Javier Hasse (14:14): Yeah, definitely. This is something I think you're spot on with. This is something I love to tell people in California and Colorado and Canada, they go like 'fake legalization.' There's a lot of issues and I'm like, I agree, but to be grateful and mindful of the fact that this is a social movement that is moving forward faster than any other social movement in the world and probably in history, the amount of countries that legalized last year in one or another form isn't the dozens. Right. Like the fact that we came up with you know, regulations and laws that didn't and we had never thought about until less than a decade ago. It's a massive step forward. Right. It's, you can't expect people because the government or, you know, it's, it's people, it's people often doing their best to, to defend public interest and you know, yeah. They roll out regulations and they won't get it right the first time. There's no way either getting it right. You're five years into recreational legalization and only now they're figuring out how to advance their system into a more commercial sort of thing with more of a medical focus. At first they just rolled it out because the president said like, I am tired of people going to jail for using cannabis and I am tired of seeing all the kids in my country fall victims of what is an equivalent to crack. It's called bipolar and you know that was it. He was like whatever and he just gave out two licenses. They started growing it outdoors like it was, you know, wheat instead of weed and they started selling them in pharmacies at like a dollar a gram, they have evolved since they, they have now come out with medical licenses and promises and license all these things that no one ever thought would be necessary at first. I mean the industry is developing and there's no real way to know what it is we need until we find out. So if I had a message for, for people, for instance in California is do keep fighting the fight, but be mindful of the fact that this is a process and it builds on itself, right? It's, it's we learned from, from what we'd done and we tried to correct our past mistakes, our round doings. And I mean in that sense, probably the first one to address is incarcerated people.
Kannaboomers (16:40): I think you're exactly right about that. There's the whole social equity piece, which some states have built in where the first business opportunities for dispensaries or whatever go to people who were previously incarcerated rather than guys in white collars who are well-financed, well-capitalized if they could make that happen. I think that's fantastic.
Javier Hasse (16:59): Everyone's priorities are different. But if I had to establish mine in relation to why I care about the legalization would be kids dying, then adults dying, them, people being incarcerated, then the rest, right. It's just like there's pretty things we can, like all of us as a society can definitely agree on. Kids shouldn't be dying because they can't access cannabis. Adults shouldn't be dying because they can't access cannabis and nonviolent people should not be in jail because of things related to cannabis. The rest is debatable. We can have our opinions and what's the best use, the best way to regulate it, but these are three main things that we been doing extremely wrong and wrong in people and that that definitely need addressing now, not tomorrow, not a month for now, but yeah, today,
Kannaboomers (17:53): Absolutely. The whole backdrop is a hundred years of propaganda in the United States and around the world. I think where it was a racist provocation, you know, there was a story told that it was Mexicans and black jazz musicians who became murderously violent when they smoked cannabis and that's why you shouldn't allow your kids and everybody bought it for decades.
Javier Hasse (18:16): Yeah, no, it was propagated to the entire world. I mean everywhere around the world. Same as in the U.S. You'd get cannabis medicine advertised on mainstream newspapers. And there overnight, you know this, this guy from California actually decided he hated weed and you know, it was not really weed actually. So here's an interesting tidbit. Many might know, many may not. There was this article that came out a few years ago in Harper's magazine where President Nixon's top aide, who, who developed really, who was behind the development of the war on drugs set, clearly we could not criminalize being black or Latino. So we criminalized the drugs they consumed instead and did everything within our power to increase, you know, the levels of consumption and said, hey, it's an old record. We could not criminalize being a minority. So we criminalized their practices, which by the way has also proven to be wrong. ACLU stats show that consumption levels, you know, percentage wise among, among white and black people for cannabis are the same. You know, not, no. Despite this fact, a black people were four times more likely to be incarcerated for cannabis possession. So it's clear as day.
Kannaboomers (19:31): It's really time to go back and rewrite history a little bit and undo some of that damage and A) tell the truth about the plant. And B), let people know that it's actually a legitimate medicine and, and people who were incarcerated, we owe them some kind of debt to help them get back on track.
Javier Hasse (19:48): So what would you think is a way to go around it or about it?
Kannaboomers (19:52): Well, some states they are offering to let people who are incarcerated have first shot at a dispensary. I don't know if they're well-equipped to run a business if they'd been locked up for a while. I mean that's another question. I don't know what else, what, what the answers are, but I think it's something that needs to be looked at.
Javier Hasse (20:09): I mean there's a lot of expungement programs. I liked. Some states have, you know, expungement programs at other, basically expunging records is releasing someone who was nonviolent and cleaning up their records so that they can get a regular job. Steve D'Angelo recently announced a program on his own called the Last Prisoner Project, which also seeks to address this. And I mean there's lots of organizations certainly finding for this sorry, that was actually my alarm for the pot. Oh yeah, we did start at where you were. There's a lot of organizations actually, you know, fighting this, so it's, I'm fine. I would tell you to find out which ones are operating within your jurisdiction and, and try to support them. So
Kannaboomers (20:56): Here's a question from your vantage point, I don't know if you have a crystal ball, but what do you see happening within the U.S. With federal legalization? Do you think that's going to happen anytime soon?
Javier Hasse (21:07): Probably. I mean, everything points toward the fact that we're moving in the right direction. Too many jurisdictions have legalized by now most Democratic, if not all Democratic candidates have included cannabis legalization or decriminalization at the very least in their platforms. Some are more progressive than others. And even Republicans have come in support of those. There's just like massive taxation you know, implications. So it seems to be one of these things where, I mean the, the American population right now supports legalization at a higher percentage than they have ever supported any candidate. Right? 66, 67% support, you know, nope. No candidate has ever gone and almost 70% of the votes in the U.S. So it's, you know, whether it's Trump you know, moving forward or Congress moving forward before the elections or right after, you know, it's, it's just a matter of time. And it seems like not a lot of time, you know, American does not love to be left behind and a lot of countries are moving forward with legalization and you know the, the example of Canada has been, you know, pretty it's been a good learning experience at say, because with Canada being so cannabis positive and cannabis forward most cannabis companies have been listing in Canadian stock exchanges, especially the major American companies. Which is curious to say the least. Considering the two largest exchanges in the world. And your stock exchange and the Nasdaq, you know, almost like the poster boy and girl, if you want to have a finance around the world you know, we are missing out in this and suddenly the Canadian Securities Exchange in the Toronto Stock Exchange are, you know, profiting and, and, and again, it's, it's one of these things where it's it's a matter of time where before at majority of politicians in America realize it's, you know, we won't, we don't want to be late to this, to this brain, and we're already a little late. Right. But it's, it's like I want to be late, but not late enough where they, you know letting people in are serving alcohol. Right. I don't want to be at a party at 2:00 AM. It's fine if I'm there by midnight.
Kannaboomers (23:54): Right? Well, yeah, if we let them have too far of a head start, that's billions, hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars of economic progress that you're, you're letting your neighbor to the North have, you know, by all means. They haven't done it perfectly. I see a lot of complaints about what's going on up there, but I think we're at 32 or 33 states now medicinally in the U.S. And in 12 or 13 for quote unquote recreational. We're getting close to that tipping point and when it does happen federally then do we have things like, okay Oregon can ship their surplus down to California or is interstate commerce going to open up all sorts of things that we haven't even thought about yet
Javier Hasse (24:35): Even if that might happen even before federal legalization actually there is Oregon as you mentioned, issued its own guidelines to export and you know, given certain federal provisions there might be something happening before full legalization right? Whether it's the states act that allows for this or maybe even safe banking. I don't know what, what it will be probably the states. But there's certainly potential there and there's still only a lot more potential in international exports. I don't see America exporting cannabis flower just because the cost is extremely high. When, when compared to Latin American countries or African countries or Asian countries, right? So I don't see America exporting dry flower, but America has always been a champion when it comes to world commerce in sophisticated, elaborated products and profits products, right? So there's a lot of potential there as well, right? Right now legalities hindering the development and all these ancillary industries. But you know, I do believe that when federal legalization comes and, and cannabis is re or descheduled, we'll see a lot of pharmaceutical products being exported from the U.S. Maybe even like, I dunno, cannabis, Advil or Tylenol, who knows? Right? So there's potential not just for interstate commerce, but for, for, you know, establishing a global footprint as, you know, as a country, we have done with many other products.
Kannaboomers (26:16): As a leader in innovation. Right? I've been hearing about, and you may know about this, but like yeast grown in a lab. Cannabis where you can manipulate the cannabinoids, cannabinoids and grow at a scale that you just can't outside or inside. But when you do it in a lab, they do it with vanilla in a lot of other things. Right? Yeah. Do you know about that?
Javier Hasse (26:41): I mean, yeah, so there's, there's very diverse approaches to the formulation. Ah, synthetic cannabinoids and naturally occurring cannabinoids beyond the cannabis plant right now. All these processes seem to be in their infancy. We heard for a while several companies claim they could develop cannabis from what's beer made of, I forget -- hops and there you go. Yeah, yeah. So they could extract CBD from hops because it was present in a certain type the ops, the, the, these claims have been pretty disputed right now. Same with the yeast projects. It's, it's, you know, it's something that we'll probably see in the future right now. We can develop cannabinoids synthetically in labs just not so much naturally occurring [inaudible] but like what any other medication, there will certainly be certain applications where it will be a more efficient, efficacious, convenient, cheaper, whatever it is to develop cannabinoids in a lab. And many others where we, we you won't be able to do that. We all talk a lot about the entourage effect, the full spectrum, right in and now all these things are probably very hard to achieve in a lab, right? But there is probably space in the world for diverse formulations. And then each one will probably suit a particular type of consumer, a particular type of use and ailments, et cetera. But it's an interesting thing to watch as many plan fundamentalist will go like, no thanks. No, no yeast. For me it's like, it's fantastic. Great, you don't use it, but I welcome every development that can help people, right? I am pragmatic in that way. Just I won't say like, oh no cannabinoids only from cannabis because we actually know there's many other foods that also have cannabinoids. So why not explore them,
Kannaboomers (29:07): Right? There's a pharmacy in this plant to be explored and if it is in the lab or sun grown or indoor grown, and it may be just learning how to extract it and concentrate it. And maybe you pull out the cannabinoids that way too. But yeah, there's so much that's going to happen as we move forward.
Javier Hasse (29:25): I mean, I know from some spices for instance, that they definitely have cannabinoid profiles, cinnamon, black pepper herbs I grew broccoli, kale, right? There is an array of cannabinoids that we should be investigating and looking into with more detail. It is something that today we haven't done much, not only because of cannabis illegality, but also because of lack of general interest around the medical properties of cannabinoids in general.
Kannaboomers (30:06): Well, and as there's more research, as the shackles come off and there's actually clinical studies, we're gonna know a lot more about where to go with it.
Javier Hasse (30:15): Yeah, definitely. People I like to tell that you know, two people say that to people a lot. It's just there is no longer just anecdotal evidence to support many of the claims made around cannabis. There are double and triple blind three-phase clinical trials to support certain claims. Like it helps with epilepsy as a combination therapy. There is certainly no evidence to say it cures cancer, so please don't drop her chemo for cannabis. There is evidence however, to to, to, to support the claim that it does help with things like chemotherapy induced nausea or pain. Right. Or even chemotherapy induced a newer path, neuropathy, that's a word that sounds right. I'm sorry I'm not a native English speaker. I do my best to nail all the words, but sometimes it's just like, you know, a whole different planet for me.
Kannaboomers (31:19): No, you're doing great. I, I've stumbled over neuropathy myself and, but I think you nailed it. The plant is not a panacea. It's not perfect for everything. It has a wide array of uses that are kind of amazing and that are still being discovered.
Javier Hasse (31:33): When I conduct interviews or chat with people. Certain people say things and they stick with me for years and I just quote them over and over and over and over again. One of these was Marvin Washington. He, he mentioned probably four years ago during a conversation, he said, 'People like to say cannabis as a cure all to all it is not. Please be careful.' And, and I've just caught that one again and again. It's not a cure all to all, right. It's got specific uses and then it's got like of course general uses that are more anecdotal. Like yeah, I feel great. Like sometimes I'm high, I feel great. That is definitely well being. I always say that is a part of wellness. There's no reason, you know, to scoff at recreational cannabis users, which is pretty trendy right now. A lot of people just go like, oh, it's not about CBD and wellness. Well, yeah, I definitely are. Your well-being is a part of wellness. Me being happy at the end of the day because of some cannabis sativa is definitely part of my well-being and my, sorry, my wellness. Right. So who is to say what's the appropriate use for it for cannabis?
Kannaboomers (32:48): You know, CBD is well accepted because we know it's good for anxiety, it's good for pain, it's good for insomnia. But yeah, I think that's where the puritans lose track and go, okay, if you're gonna have fun, that we're against that.
Javier Hasse (33:04): That's crazy. That's crazy. The idea that medicating cannot be fun and twist it and explain to an extent. I do feel that's the point of, for many people for, you know, that the main reason why they medicate with cannabis, right? Why are edibles so popular? Because you're not taking a pill. You don't feel ill and not feeling ill. You know, the psychological component of every illness is often very, you know, very important to how you actually deal with it. So honestly, taking five pills or eating some cannabis infused whatever, you know, can make a big difference. I often recommend people, they go like, well, what should I do? And he'd go, well, find a very good product that fits your, your certain conditions. We'll look into them, we investigate a little bit, but then I go like, well, try and put this into CBD, into our label. Finding an actual olive oil, right? It doesn't taste like cannabis and you don't feel it. You just put two spoonfuls of olive oil in your midday salad and you're medicating, right? So who says it shouldn't be Fun, right? People like CBD, it's medical because it doesn't get you high end of, and then, you know, cannabis as a whole plant does. Well, there's a lot of ailments that need THC to be treated correctly. Right. Well, if it's also fun, that's awesome. Like what's wrong with it?
Kannaboomers (34:34): I had Mara Gordon on the show and I think the way she put it was, 'Well, it lets you put your pain away from yourself. It's like you can, you still have the pain, but you compartmentalize it when you have cannabis in your tool chest, you can think of your pain in a different way. It's there, but you tolerate it differently because of your mindset.'
Javier Hasse (34:52): I agree completely. I mean, again, this ecological component is, is massive and any and all I think I want to say is, and how you deal with them. And I, I just had this experience in relation with very close people in my life and family members and you know, it really helps it, it's not just the actual pain relief or the actual clinical effect, but also this, this feeling of feeling better.
Kannaboomers (35:27): Right. Yeah. Having some, a sense of euphoria you know, having a smile on your face.
Javier Hasse (35:35): No. Yeah, no, it's, it's definitely helpful.
Kannaboomers (35:39): Well, how long have you, you had this job and in that time have you seen, what is, have you seen happen with the stigma around cannabis?
Javier Hasse (35:46): Funny you asked. So like five years ago, always bragging about hedge funds, insider trading, just classic finance for several big media outlets. Very serious. And someone asked me if I would write an article about cannabis stocks and unrelated places and I had to put a lot of thought into it like, do I jeopardize this career? I'm this guy from Argentina traveling or were, you know, making U.S. Dollars and like do I jeopardize my career to write about weed because cannabis deep down it's weed. We don't like to call that anymore. But that's what it is. Right? So when I told my parents for instance, they were like, you're crazy. You're completely out of mind. You know, and I asked my editor, can I sign it as Mr. Hayes? And he goes like, no way. It's your name or you don't publish it. It's fine if you don't want to. So a lot has changed since, you know, when I started writing about cannabis finance, there were probably one or two other people doing that like Debra Borchard and Alan Brownstein and then to a certain extent, you know, that was it. So a lot has changed so extremely fast. Right? And, and again, it's, it sounds like, I mean, it's changing so fast, it almost sounds like a lifetime when it comes to legal cannabis of people have been doing things with cannabis and about cannabis for decades, centuries, millennia and the legal front it's, it's, you know, it's changed really fast and, and stigma has changed a lot. People who would definitely not hear me out a few years ago, all these investment people and whatever, when I brought up cannabis there were like, yeah, yeah, just like crypto. It's BS.
Javier Hasse (37:35): And it's like now they come to me and they will go have your we know you're into cannabis. What kind of opportunities are you seeing? It's like, were you not comfortable with this? Just like two years ago? Right. And I mean stigma wise also like just as a society we, we really have progressed a lot and come to understand the benefits of cannabis for them at a municipal standpoint and we now know about medical cannabis or medical marijuana or what you want to call it. Five years ago probably people brought up medical cannabis and, and most people are like, no, this is a bunch of hippies. Just trying to find an excuse to get high. Like this is just, you know, they're calling it medicine but it's not, well guess what it is. And now people know.
Kannaboomers (38:23): Again, we were lied to for almost a hundred years and there was a lot of underground knowledge and maybe you got High Times magazine, you know, in the, in the 80s, but there's been an explosion of knowledge. And again, the Internet probably has fueled a lot of this, but you guys are at a point where you're publishing 20 or 30 stories a day on cannabis. So the knowledge is exploding right now. So it's really an interesting time. We've reached the tipping point, I think. And you can't put that genie back in the bottle. Right?
Javier Hasse (38:52): The genie is out of the proverbial bottle. When, when I'm, when am I repeating quotes taken from, I don't even remember who it was, but I liked the addition of proverbial and I just use it now. I think I learned that word back then. So now I use it for, for other things, like when you miss, you know, when, when you see something that's a little bit wrong, I go like, I'm, I believe I'm pissing out of the proverbial toilet, so now I just use it. You're in there just a lot of people that don't grow, don't think I'm being literal about it. Like, no, no, don't worry. I'm not peeing right now. It's just an expression. It's just the translation of a Spanish expression that clearly does not translate well into English. So proverbial.
Kannaboomers (39:33): I think we can say the stigma is, is abating somewhat. And we're, we're moving into a more open era. Let me ask you, do you prefer sativa or indica?
Javier Hasse (39:43): I love sativas. Yeah, that's about it. I think it's, it's different for everyone. It really depends on what you're looking for. As you might be a lot more, much more aware than I am. I am not an expert in product consumption. I do love cannabis, but, you know, I'm not particularly familiar with all the products. I know that what they are, I know they exist. I know what they do. I know how they feel. But if you ask me, it's like, Eh, I don't know. I like to enjoy myself. Yeah. But I mean, it's, it's definitely your personal choice and also a matter of the moment, right? If you're gonna consume some, some strong sativa before going to bed, you're not going to get asleep. You're not gonna fall asleep. Right. Let, if you're gonna smoke some indica in the middle of the day or after you're done with work and whatever, it's maybe you just feel lazy as hell afterwards. Right. You know, it's, if you're hanging out with your friends and you want to have a blast and be laughing out loud, you know, you know, just wetting your pants with laughter. It's probably sativa, right in what you're looking for is a little bit of relaxation before exercise. Maybe try a very low dose of an indica or, right. So there's not one answer, but if I am, if you ask me about my personal predilection, I go sativa.
Kannaboomers (41:16): Well I think you're right and I've heard some people say, oh those are meaningless, that the cultivars have been so crossed over and there's so many hybrids and oh, that is true. But I think they are useful in that you can hang your hat on. Well I want to be energized or I want to relax and yeah, hopefully whoever grew this is calling it what it should be called in order for me to understand the effect it's going to have. But I don't know, the names of the cultivars still don't tell us anything. And I don't know when there will be a classification system, but I hear you saying, you know, for, for all of us, I think there's trial and error required in this. You're not going to know how you are going to react to that edible. So be careful, don't eat the whole candy bar, you know, have, have a gummy and not three to start. And you know, you're going to find out something. And I've tried an indica before doing yoga and found it's really amazing. You can really make a difference in your workout. And like you say, you don't want to hit a sativa or an energizing cultivar before you go to bed cause you'll be up all night.
Javier Hasse (42:20): I mean, as you say, trial and error, it's like I do believe we're moving toward more trial and less error. Fortunately, you know, there's an educational component to all of this. Resources like Kannaboomers are essential to people understand that this, because that's, that's also a reality as we move forward with cannabis knowledge, we are perfecting, you know the not only our knowledge but the effects it has on people because deep down if you ask me like, should people trying to medicate really have to go through the experience of trial and error? I'm saying in I, in an ideal world, not really. They just just hand out the right thing for them from, from moment one, not have a couple of bad trips, you know, or, or the undesired effect before you find the right strain, product dose, presentation, input method, right? And you know, conversation is key to that. And I'm not saying every cannabis product shouldn't be standardized. Maybe people, you know, we can definitely have adult use products where it's just like some bud and you hope it was, they'll be the kind of bud you wanted. But then there's definitely some applications where we need this predictability and there's a lot of developments out there as well as in the works to help people predict how their experience will work out. Right. And again, this is something you do Tom, right? It's like you just log into products and tell people like, well, I would suggest you, if you're, you know, if this is your ailment, you should try these sorts of products first. Right? They seem to have a track record treating them in the past. We want that predictability in, in many cases. But you know, trying things is also good at just what well probably and does probably dissuade some people who could potentially be treated with cannabis from actually going for this treatment just because it's not working for them. And I've seen that a lot now. It's gotten me too high. No, it didn't get me high. No, it didn't use my pain. Right. I've heard that a lot. And then that is certainly something that sharing and probably will not happen in just a couple of years where someone will just go into a store and go like, Hey, my back hurts and the person selling this cannabis will go, this is the product for you. It's an ointment. No, but I want, no, no, this is, this is what you need. Like if you can try other products, but like you need a topic, go for this or do you need a sublingual for that? And it's this sword and this dose, like any other medication. Right.
Kannaboomers (45:06): Well, I recently had Dr. Benjamin Kaplan on and he runs the CED Clinic and CED Foundation out in Massachusetts and he is bringing cannabis into his medical practice and he talks about sort of the matching that you need to do between the plant and the and the patient. Another aspect of this is not that you need to endlessly do trial and error, but you need to listen to your body in a way that is different from the normal traditional American relationship between a patient and doctor. I mean the traditional relationship. As you go in and say, you know, I've got a backache doc and he gives you some pills and you go home and take them, but now it's cannabis. It's going to be okay. I'm going to give you this and I want you to listen to your body and tell me how, how it works for you and we'll go from there.
Javier Hasse (45:51): Well, funny you mentioned though, because that is certainly something I do believe we need to assess as a culture. The fact that a doctor goes here, some opiates take them and you don't listen to your body. You're feeling like crap and having night terrors and this and this and that. And it's like, oh yeah, but doctor's orders. Well, guess what that doctor probably did was not considering every factor, right. Or was not completely well-informed, right. Or, or is definitely influenced by a culture of extreme drug consumption like we have in America. I mean, it should be a relationship with every sort of therapy. Listen to your body. It's crazy that only now cannabis, this does generate that a certain, a certain state of mindfulness when you grow cannabis at your home and suddenly you love every plant and you're in touch with amply every plant and you consume cannabis and you become mindful of your surroundings or the people around you or certain sensations in your body, right? That is certainly something that this is an approach that we should be taking as a society to work life in general. Right? and, and, and doctors are only being more careful because it's new and no one wants to get in trouble. Well, guess what? Maybe it's like it's a good practice in general.
Kannaboomers (47:11): Right? You know, mindfulness A) and B), you know, taking some responsibility on, on your own for your health and well-being. That means besides cannabis, it probably means watching what you eat and you know, getting some exercise that might be the real entourage effect as we talked about with Dr. Caplan is, you know, the, the positive effect of diet and exercise and cannabis can really go a long way to helping you live a life of wellness.
Javier Hasse (47:35): I just got another one of my recurring quotes right here. That's a real entourage effect. I'm quoting you and Dr. Kaplan on that. Oh good, good. I can do a double byline for that one.
Kannaboomers (47:49): Well, Javier, I think we've had a great conversation. I want to let people know where to find you online.
Javier Hasse (47:54): So it's my name and surname and you will be able to find me everywhere. It's JAVIER. Last name is H A S S E. Hasse. I'm on Twitter. If you type it in, it shows up like an official Google knowledge box, you can find me on Linkedin and Instagram and Facebook and Amazon. You can read all of my team's stuff at benzinga.com/cannabis you can find me on Forbes, often in High Times. Dope magazine, Entrepreneur magazine. So I dunno, I'm not a fan of self promotion, so this is pretty weird. But just, you know, feel free to follow me and if you don't like what I share, feel free to unfollow me. I am trying to do nothing but put out into the world so you know, let's hope some of that love reaches anyone who chooses to follow.
Kannaboomers (48:48): Yeah. And you're not hard to find. You're everywhere. So we can find you and I look forward to seeing you on Twitter and Facebook and Linkedin and all over the place. We'll carry on the conversation and then you know, maybe we can do this again sometime.
Javier Hasse (49:01): Would love to, would love to and I really appreciate you thinking of me. You having me over and honestly it was a candid conversation. It has been fun and entertaining and certainly food for thought. No, I will, I will listen to this a couple of times and just take notes of if your comments as well because I'm, as I mentioned, I really liked to take in what you know, others things.
Kannaboomers (49:23): Well and I know our listeners are gonna really enjoy this episode. You're a guy with the front seat at again the social revolution of our time and it's a heck of a story and I really look forward to hearing your, your dispatches and reading them as you go because there's so many aspects of this to be told yet and you're right there with a front row seat. So thank you for taking the time to share your expertise with us. And again, maybe we can do this again in the future.
Javier Hasse (49:49): Please have anyone who wants to get a front row seat as well to reach out. I'll hook you up with tickets. I believe this is something that everyone should be able to be a part of an experience. So I'll let you take it away from here. All right. Thank you so much. Javier, thank you.
Kannaboomers (50:06): You've been listening to, Let's Talk About Weed, the Kannaboomers Podcast with Thomas j for more on medicinal cannabis for baby boomers. Visit us at Kannaboomers dot com.